Steve Baker: Yes, I said sorry to Dublin but the media missed my point about our resolve over tackling the Irish Sea border

“The protocol as it is today is clearly intolerable to legitimate unionist interests,” Mr Baker said in an interview, carried out at NIO headquarters in Belfast on Tuesday.

“And that’s partly why I phrased what I said the other day the way I did, humility and resolve - and unfortunately, the resolve didn’t get picked up.”

When it is pointed out that the News Letter did report that resolve point, Mr Baker says: “I am glad you did ... [the resolve] was heard by Ireland.”

Irish ministers, he insisted, knew he was not “going soft”.

“But what I was trying to do was change the negotiating dynamic ... what I’m doing with the protocol is trying to create the conditions within which we can have a success for the Union, which respects the Belfast Good Friday Agreement in all of its dimensions, including east-west”.

Mr Baker says: “We had some very unhelpful reporting, as the Secretary of State [Chris Heaton-Harris] and I were appointed. I think Claire Hanna [SDLP MP] said it was obnoxious. Well, I wanted to demonstrate that actually, I do consider other people’s interests.”

Mr Baker then went on to give what many politicians might consider to be a controversial warning to officials in other branches of the UK government about coming EU talks.

“So it is a Foreign Office lead on the negotiations, obviously, we’ll work very, very closely together ...”

The NIO minister of state cites Jeffrey Donaldson’s speech last week to the DUP conference about how Northern Ireland is still tied to EU laws, then he said: “Now, this needs to be heard far and wide. It needs to be heard in the Foreign Office by officials who might otherwise do a tech mini technical negotiation. And it needs to be heard by the EU.

“That the only way this is going to succeed, is if we cease to tie Northern Ireland to EU law.”

Realising that this is a “big ask” for Brussels, Mr Baker says it was why he tried to “change the negotiating dynamic”.

But did Mr Baker not then go too far towards apology, given that Ireland adopted its own robust, controversial approach to the outworkings of Brexit?

“I recognise that people have been alarmed and furious and have thought I’ve gone too far the other way.” But, he says, “I know people fear betrayal. It is a matter of history, that when I was a Brexit Minister ... I and all the other Brexit ministers told officials we needed an FTA (Free Trade Agreement) based Brexit. They were crestfallen because they wanted a very high alignment Brexit. And after that point, I actively was betrayed. I had special advisors coming to try and coax me over the line to sell out on what I wanted to do.”

Mr Baker recaps on how he and two other ministers under Theresa May, David Davis and Boris Johnson, then quit her government.

Is he saying the Foreign Office betrayed him?

“Well ... the Cabinet Office in that case”.

Noting that the Irish Foreign Minister Simon Coveney said he would accept “a nil-nil draw” Mr Baker says he would too: “ ... arrangements which satisfy unionists and the Irish government and the EU”.

Asked about the fact that the European Research Group of pro Brexit Tory MPs themselves betrayed the DUP by voting for Boris Johnson’s 2019 deal, including the protocol, Mr Baker says that failure to do so “would have destroyed the Tory party and ushered in a [Jeremy] Corbyn government”

Is he now just talking tough but prepared to accept concessions on the less contentious matters, like reducing checks on goods across the Irish Sea, but not amend constitutionally damaging aspects of the internal UK trade barrier?

Mr Baker replies that the unionist grievance is the “constitutional question”. Respecting the “Belfast/ Good Friday Agreement East-West does mean in my view, ending the supremacy of European law [in NI]”.

Defending Ireland’s interests and the EU single market can go in tandem with that. Then NI can argue about “normal stuff” such as health and education.

“Ireland have got to be amongst our very best friends, we’re not going to achieve that by other than patching up the relationship.”

But was Mr Baker on a solo run in his apology and now on a solo run with this harder tone?

He replies that literature on leadership shows that humility plus resolve provide transformation. “When we test this interview against government policy, I think we’ll find that I’ve stayed within the bounds of collective responsibility.”

Asked if Liz Truss, the prime minister, is so weakened by the recent mini budget and turmoil in her government that she will be lack the bandwidth to challenge the protocol, Mr Baker thinks not.

“So I’ve watched Liz, who I know very well ... as a working class kid from Cornwall it’s an amazing privilege to be able to say ... she’s got so much resilience, it’s amazing to watch.”

But also, he says, she has the support of eurosceptic Tory MPs.

“Some of us have had reports of cabinet meetings, and it was Suella [Braverman] and Liz who knew what needed to be done. So the prime minister has my complete confidence that she knows what’s at stake ...”

Failure would see the revival of “Nigel Farage and the Brexit Party”.

And will there really be a Stormont election if the assembly is not back by the end of this month?

“Well the prime minister and secretary of state have been absolutely clear that there will be an election ... they would have to bring forward legislation for there to not be an election and they won’t do that, they will have an election.”

But, he adds, they are discussing things with the DUP “to find a way for [them] to enter the executive with a good heart before the 28th”.

Mr Baker also predicted that the failure “to sort [the protocol] are obvious” at Westminster.

“It means the Eurosceptic MPs really kicking off,” he said.

When it comes to the DUP, Mr Baker seems to be playing good and bad with them.

On the one hand he is clear that there will be a Stormont election if the biggest unionist party does not return there by the end of this month (see below left).

On the other, he refers generously - and more than once - to a speech by the DUP leader Sir Jeffrey Donaldson at the recent party conference.

Mr Baker says that speech, in which Sir Jeffrey said the party needed not only an end to internal trade checks but the removal of EU laws, needs to be heard.

Accepting that it was “most unfortunate” that Boris Johnson’s 2019 Brexit deal left Northern Ireland behind in the EU trade area, Mr Baker says “I’ve walked a very long way with the DUP through the confidence and supply [agreement to prop up Theresa May’s then government].

“You know, when I was Brexit Minister, I would go to the liaison meetings with Arlene [Foster] and others with the DUP.”

But if Mr Johnson’s deal had not gone through, he might have lost his Wycombe seat, alongside other Tory losses, and thus there would be no Brexit.

Now, he says, “this is a moment to just reflect on what Jeffrey Donaldson has said: ‘let me be clear, either the prime minister delivers the provisions of the Protocol Bill, by legislation or by negotiation and ensures that our place in the United Kingdom is restored, or there’ll be no basis to re-enter Stormont’.

“He went on to say, ‘we will constantly face new barriers, because we are tied to a different set of laws’.

“I mean, it’s absolutely clear what the legitimate unionist grievance is. It’s that constitutional question.”

Mr Baker adds: “I’m slightly hesitant even now to talk like this, but it’s necessary to say this to your readers. But we really cannot, at the moment be shouting about our red lines, we can’t, because if we do, we won’t get into a negotiation, if we don’t get into a negotiation we won’t solve the problem.”

He says that political stability in Northern Ireland “rests on people understanding very clearly Jeffrey Donaldson’s speech, because Jeffrey set out very clearly the unionist interest, he set out very clearly the criteria by which they will rejoin an executive and by goodness, we do need an executive we need to sort out the budget, sort out health care, and on and on it goes”.

Looking out the window of his office in central Belfast, with a fine view over the urban skyline, Mr Baker is optimistic.

“The imperative here is good government for Northern Ireland, there’s so much potential in every time I look out this big window here, I see a city full of entrepreneurial spirit.”

• Ben Lowry: Up the Ra chanting shows why unionists should avoid New Ireland

• Ben Lowry: Sleepy Creeslough familiar to many people from across NI